Episode 003 of Inside the Law features the second part of our interview with former United States Secret Service agent, Jason Wells.
Click here for part 1 (episode #2), including links and show notes
Follow Jason and ask questions (he reads every single one) on his very active Quora page.
Jason Wells is the author of Our Path to Safety: A U.S. Secret Service Agent's Guide to Creating Safe Communities. The book outlines how citizens, school and businesses can identify and assess threat-related behaviors:
What if there was a way to identify a threat to a school, a business or a community before it happened? What attackers who target innocent people have in common is not their psychological conditions nor their social upbringing, but rather their behavioral actions prior to their violence. These behaviors have been studied at length for years, and are now available to the public.
The book was inspired by the firsthand experience of a close friend in the Washington Navy Yard shooting, in September, 2013. The attacker, a 34-year-old gunman named Aaron Alexis, entered the facility in the morning and began randomly shooting, with the intent to kill as many innocent people as possible.
Jason Wells is also the President and Founder of The National Advancements for Proactive Safety (NAPS), an educational non-profit organization committed to providing a safe community through intervention processes.
In this episiode (#3): (click here for part 1 of the interview - episode #2)
- 01:16 “It’s about playing the odds. I think (schools) play the odds. There’s 144,000 public schools in America and 90,000 private schools in America and I think they play the odds that statistically it’s just not going to happen at their place.”
- 03:45 How proactive training works
- 04:05 All paperwork for training is in the back of the book
- 04:50 In just an hour, people can learn enough…
- 05:50 Kids are the best intel collectors in the world - Intelligence community is implying the wrong people (joking). …Sometimes they don’t realize how important the info they have is
- 07:20 After reporting, you don’t have the right to know the follow-up (personal & private)
- 08:55 Very important to have a specific police officer assigned to a school
- 11:27 Jason knows his neighbors
- 12:40 early indicators
- 13:40 early indicator story
- 14:04 Marilyn Mansion picture in his training classes
- 15:00 Person makes you feel awkward
- 15:10 Virginia Tech attacker made many professors so uncomfortable that they developed a secret code to communicate and warn one another about him. They had reported on him several times, but there was noting for the school to act on, so they couldn’t do anything. “They felt that there was something off about him”
- 16:20 Everybody has a story of a person creeping them out or causing internal alarms to go off.
- 16:40 Jason’s friend from high school killed his own mother with a hammer.
- 18:00 “You should listen to what you’re gut’s telling you.” (Mark: “Get a professional set of eyes on the situation”)
- 20:20 Maladaptive behavior being exposed to a new environment and not being able to adapt. Lots of pressure, Example: kids transferring to new schools (20:40 “Inside Out” movie, 21:10 “Full Metal Jacket”)
- 21:40 Disregarding social norms
- 23:20 Irrational behavior
- 23:30 Hooliganism in soccer
- 23:40 “I am passionate about sports. I’m as passionate as the next guy. But I’m not gonna go out and make blood bombs, or urine bombs, or molotov cocktails to incinerate my opponent’s fans.”
- 25:22 unconventional beliefs
- 25:37 9/11 Truthers
- 26:25 600 years ago, almost everyone on earth believed the world was flat
- 27:45 Last of the early indicators: behavioral suffering - may be dealing with a tragic event in their life. “I believe that you don’t need the other indicators to do something about it. If you know somebody’s going through a personally hard time, you need to make the effort to help them out.”
- 29:00 Mark: “And just reaching out and listening, for 15 minutes … can make all of the difference.”
- 29:40 Why Jason left the Secret Service
- 31:10 Writing the book was therapeutic
- 31:50 Athletes (and retiring Secret Service agents) die twice
- 32:00 Twenty months from application submission to getting hired
- 32:22 Then 8 months of training: 4 months at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glen___, GA then back to James J. Raleigh Training Center in Beltsville, MD
- 33:00 (Jason was told) “No matter where you go in life, whatever you do, you will be remembered in some aspect as a Secret Service … it might even be on your tombstone. It was his way of saying: So you’d better be damn sure…”
- 33:47 Act on danger indicators (“red flags”) as quickly as possible. They have a seriousness that means you need to involve other people. Empowerment means you need to do something (might need to involve law enforcement)
- 34:45 This is the meat of the book. “…I believe that people look at something and they say I don’t know what this means. I know it’s bad. I know there’s something going on right now, that I’m getting concerned about. But because I don’t know what it is, I’m overreacting. And so it’s important that we defined what they need to be looking for. I think a lot of times people need that. They need that hard piece of paper that says this is what you’re looking for.”
- 35:43 a playbook of what to look for
- 35:50 Significant & sudden changes in a person’s life. Jason: “If people forget everything that I’ve ever said to them or everything in my book … I want them to remember or retain this topic right here: Sudden or significant changes in a person’s life for a danger indicator. This is the highest percentage of the individuals who were studied in the (Exceptional Case Study Project that the Secret Service conducted in the 90’s - see 43:00 from previous episode). (36:30) Almost every single individual who committed a targeted violence against another person had sudden or significant changes in their life. Things like, they lost their job, they had a divorce, they found out their significant other had an affair, they were embarrassed, humiliated in public, they lost their house. All these stressors, that we’ve all dealt with, that makes you feel like your world comes crashing down and that there’s just … everything is just over, and you fall to your knees and you cry to God, help me please. We’ve all experienced some kind of calamity or something like this in our life. …This sudden changes are what motivate … are high probability - I believe the percentage is 98% of the time - are what have motivated and individual to act, in cases where they were studied, in targeted violence.”
- 37:52 “The point I’m getting at is, we all experience these things. If you see someone who’s experiencing this, be proactive in their life. If they’re going through a hard time in their life, if they’re having a divorce, if they’ve lost their job, this is where you need to get involved. You may need to get involved with their family. You may need to talk with their spouse or their support group… You need to be involved. You need to be doing something about it. (38:20) If it’s a kid that you know about at school, who’s going through a sudden, horrible issue, or something, you need to make sure that the faculty’s aware of it, that the guidance counselor’s aware of it. If you know that someone’s going through a hard time at your office, you need to make sure that supervisors and human resources are aware of these situations
- 38:40 These cataclysmic, sudden (negative, horrible) changes in peoples’ lives
- 39:30 We know this in our lives (running joke about always firing someone on a Friday, so they have time to cool off)
- 39:40 Refers to Falling Down movie, where Michael Douglass just had enough of the traffic and went insane.
- 41:20 Concern of others - what you’re recognizing from what other people are observing … You may be the person who is being given information about someone else (e.g. about your spouse or co-worker, etc). If you are the reporter or confidant, you shouldn’t ignore it - it’s important that you take the next step
- 43:00 Motivations of individuals:
(43:14) Notoriety or fame. Example: Sirhan Sirhan saying “They can gas me, they can put me in the electric chair, they can kill me, but the one thing they will remember is that Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert F. Kennedy.” In his delusional mind, he wanted to make sure that everyone knew who he was.
(44:00) Cry for help. Mostly focused on people who attempt suicide.
44:30 Revenge is a typically common recipe for violent response.
(45:00) Delusions of grandeur (when you believe you’re something larger than life or greater than you are. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine Massacre. Prior to their attack, there was evidence to suggest they were bullied in school. They created an alternate persona, that they called Te Trenchcoat Mafia.
(45:40) Bringing attention to a cause or concern The Earth Liberation Front
- 46:50 Mental health indicators “The vast, vast majority of people who have, who are diagnosed with mental health conditions, or have mental health conditions, whether they’ve been diagnosed or not, are not violent … It’s just that the people who have been studied, who have violence, also have shown to have mental health conditions in the past
- 48:30 In virtually every instance of targeted violence, there’s a display of behavior associated with planning an attack. Mark “Almost all the time. How come we’re not seeing these things?” Jason: “I think we are seeing them, but we’re not doing anything about them.”
- 49:05 Safe School Initiative - similar report to Exceptional Case Study Project, jointly done by Secret Service and the Department of Education, took individuals who had attacked schools, academic institutions, and corporations and businesses.
- 49:50 Pre-planning shows person didn’t just wake up and decide - their actions were calculated.
- 50:01 “It’s important that if you’re hearing somebody talk about how they’re planning on doing something, or that they’re researching it, you definitely need to do something about it.” (51:00) Individuals planning violence are as proud and excited about their work and planning as if it were a new car.
- 51:10 “This is a methodical planning … It’s always on their mind. It’s what they’re always thinking about. They can’t help but communicate it. As the day gets closer they start getting giddy with excitement. It’s not enough to put it into a journal or a video … they have to share it. They have to brag, They have to boast. And that’s why communication is so key.
- 51:50 Jason: “You say, how do we not know about these things? I think we do. These individuals are talking about it. They’re discussing it. And the people who they’re reporting or saying it to, these, quote, individuals of trust, their friends or their siblings or their parents, aren’t saying anything.
- 52:05 “Go through all the news clippings of all the incidents that occurred in America in the last 10 years that involved weapons or violence. (People say) one of two things. He or she seemed like a nice person. I never imagined that they would do this … The other thing is, well, he said a couple things here and there, but I never imagined he was serious…”
- 52:50 People know. They just don’t feel empowered enough to say anything about it.
- 53:00 When you get that information, don’t just brush it aside. Do something with it.
- 53:05 Bullying is behind many acts of targeted violence. Story of Jason getting bullied.
- 54:05 Two general responses to bullying: people tend to fall into a shell and they become cloistered in themselves, in a shell. Or, the other response is tat people just snap.
- 54:30 “(Bullying and finally standing up to the bully) changed me. It got to the point that I just didn’t want to see that happen to anybody else, ever again.”
- 54:50 Cyber-bullying - every time you like or comment on an unflattering video, you’re contributing to cyber-bullying. It’s follows people everywhere, on the Internet. You’re not being conventionally bullied by the guy in the school hallway. It’s out on the web permanently, and there’s no way to defend yourself against it.
- 1:00:00 “The ultimate end result (of bullying) is the humiliation. That’s what really is the damage.”
- 1:00:10 Humiliation ties into a motivation for revenge. Or, public humiliation is one of the sudden or significant negative changes in a person’s life.
- 1:01:40 Stalking. A Secret Service classmate said stalking is when two people are on a date, but only one of them knows it…. You have an obsessed individual, who fancies another person, for one reason or another, and it’s not reciprocated.
- 1:01:30 Jason’s family member was a stalking victim
- 1:03:05 John Hinkley Jr., violent stalker of Jodie Foster - obsessed with her. “He was motivated to attack President Reagan, because in his diseased mind, he felt that this would show Jodie Foster how powerful he was.
- 1:03:50 What should a stalking victim do?
- 1:04:08 Another example of people thinking they’re overreacting and not wanting to alarm other people, so they often don’t take action. “If you’re being victimized by stalking incidents, you need to make sure that people are well aware that this is happening.”
- 1:04:47 Are current laws effective for handling stalking situations?
- 1:05:05 What is online stalking?
- 1:06:05 Jason just wrote the forward to a book from a two-time NY Times bestselling author, who is a good friend and former Secret Service associate, Dan Bongino. He has a podcast called The Renegade Republican. He does quite a bit of conservative radio. He’s filled-in for Sean Hannity and Marc Levin, in the past. He’s been a guest on CNN and Fox News. He’s written two books. Life in the Bubble, about his time in the Secret Service. Second book is The Fight, which is a political book He’s coming out with his third book, which is about the Secret Service.Jason: “I’ve read it. It’s excellent. I had the privilege of being asked by Dan to write the forward for the book, which was a great honor. And I don’t use that word lightly. Words like honor are very important to me, and it was a great honor. I was very excited and I’m very proud of the forward. He seemed to like it.” The book is coming out at the end of September. It’s called The Secret Service.
- 1:08:00 Jason is in the process of writing a follow-up to Our Path to Safety. The working title is Our Future for Safety. It’s geared toward middle school, high school and college students, sharing what they can do to prevent targeted violence.
- 1:08:40 Jason is also in the process of fulfilling a promise to his daughter to write a fiction book, based on his daughter’s story idea.
- 1:09:30 Where to find Jason online. www.jasonwellsauthor.com and quora.com where visitors can follow Jason and message him directly. Also includes cooking on his Big Green Egg (grill?). Also his 501(c)(3) non-profit, National Advancements for Public Safety is at www.take-naps.org
And MUCH more...
This last section, about Sandy Hook, is incredibly powerful! Jason articulates the meaning behind his non-profit organization, NAPS.
Keywords: secret service, targeted violence, law enforcement, social norm, maladaptive behavior, motivations, violent rampage, secret service application process, playing the odds
TRANSCRIPT: Welcome to another episode of Inside the Law. I'm your host Mark Gavagan. This is the second of our two part interview with author and former United States Secret Service agent Jason Wells the first part of our interview is in the episode immediately preceding this Sandy Hook. Sandy Hook was it for me. My daughter was the age of some of those kids. And I remember reading that there was a one of the teachers was found cradling one of. When the teacher was found cradling one of the kids. That's how they found her and it's horrible you know it's such a horrible situation and I just. I just don't want to see it happen again. I don't want to see it ever happen again nobody does but I don't I really don't want to see it ever having I mean like I want to really like some about it my I hope other people do too you know and I don't think it takes a lot if we have more people to get involved you know and get involved with more proactive interventions I talk to teachers a lot to talk to teachers I talk to even at that the principal level and a lot of parents and they are all they share my sentiments and. You start getting into administrative levels. And it's. That's where. I believe that at the superintendent level I believe that's where. And it's not about money there's a reason why it's a nonprofit you know and it's about playing the odds I think they play the odds there's. One hundred forty four thousand public schools. In America and one ninety thousand private schools in America and I think they play the odds that statistically it's not going to happen at their place you know that I could be and it's not just targeted violence at their schools but I think that there's a lot of other and offices of corporations they look around they go well. Statistically it's infinitesimally small sums going to happen here you know but they're willing to do enough to have lockdown drills. You know they're willing to do enough to. Administratively to do you know have fire drills fire alarms let's add a behavioral aspect to it you know not much refresher courses updates case study scenarios I've taught a couple of those case States in areas where I've given a case study I've given the background on an individual but I haven't told people who they are and I give them a checklist and then they go through the checklist and they check off the as I'm reading the case study to them they're checking off the indicators that they're. There so as to be identifying the person and then we were view it and whether they would report him are not sometimes the people that they have are not reportable sometimes they are I think that those are programs that we can implement we could apply and you don't have to have me I gave you all the paperwork in the book you know if you look at if you go to the back of the book I gave them paperwork that they can just Xerox it and photocopy it and everything so you know I mean hey if you want to call me in have me come out and give a lecture or I'll be delighted to but I also understand that some people just don't want to do it than get the book and. You can of the paperwork yourself you know do it yourself you know so it's incredible to me that really with a little bit of effort and a little bit of time even though these waters can run very very deep and there's so much to learn in forty minutes or an hour once a year a teacher a manager a principal and they say if I just make it enjoyable right now and you just learn and I'm going out learning that's to recognize something and take that first step which can lead to prevention and even if they don't recognize it they'll feel empowered to do something if they don't remember it they'll say well you know what that's the. In one message that I try and get across over and over and over when I give training courses or when I talk to people I say empowerment take faith in what you are seeing and what you're feeling when those goosebumps are standing up on you when you're seeing something you don't need a definition that I don't need and I'm not telling you to pull the fire alarm either it may just be something like walking up to a person say hey are you OK are you feeling right that may make the difference between them saying you know what I was going to end it all today and I or I decided not to that maybe notify our guidance counselor if you see something in a kid you know you may be driving your your your kid home and they may have friends in the back even be hearing them gossip one thing I can tell you right now is kids they're the best intel collectors in the world they they collaborate firm believer that after I did up at them quite a bit of research on on kids recently by being by doing substitute teaching and I can tell you right now that they are they are incredible with their intel collection the intel community is employing the wrong people they need to get the kids are there they're doing great they would employ great people to play wonderful people and then but kids are really good it collecting information and disseminating it to each other and they do a very good job and sometimes they don't realize what they've got sometimes in to realize that some of the things that they're talking about they're like hey did you see what Billy built you said he brought into school today I can't believe he got that out of his dad's locker I don't even know he was allowed to have it as a real bull it wasn't you know before you realize that you're like oh you know hey maybe I need to tell someone about this and I can almost guarantee if you're seeing something or you're hearing something and you're reporting something to a guidance counselor or H.R. rep you're probably not the first person report it. They probably have a book they probably have something where they're like OK thanks for the information do you have the right to know what else happens after that no that's one thing that's really important we talked about earlier how you said you know what what about if this affects a person negatively in their career what that's a false reading you know. The one thing that needs to be addressed very clear is that even though you report it that does not give you the right to know the follow up. That's what I think is important is. If you think it affects them negatively Well you're not going to know what happened you're not going to transpire from it. Nor should you this is someone's personal life you recognize something that happened that doesn't mean that you have the right to be part of the gossip or part of the end it's not gossip it's an it's in a proactive investigation to ensure that everything's OK you know that is something that I think a lot of people don't really grasp sometimes they think because they reported there and in now because they have a little bit information now on it too don't you tell your friends either it's important we listen to our kids and it's important that we if we hear something that we report it and I promise I can assure you that if you're reporting it to someone an authority figure something that they've probably heard it from someone else too so I should I should assume if I report something to a guidance counselor and say I should never expect to hear any follow up there should be no reason for them to address that the that's the act phase that you talk we talk about the observe assess and act that's what I call a squared and the ACT phase ninety percent of the people involved in oh it's quite an argument of what the action face the action phase is a very small group that I call the behavior observation assessment team a boat and a boat is usually a group of people that put together based on their experience and their professional backgrounds in a school would be a principal probably the vice principal guides counselor and then maybe some outside authorities school resource officer but usually police officers assigned to the school I think it's very important to have someone like that on board I don't know just just runs the gamut based on who you would want to put on that committee but that is the group the think tank that's going to work on how they want to address a situation and I think that everyone should have something like. Not just school I think businesses offices corporations should all have that I think of this issue we have when it comes to reporting conditions are things that you see like in your neighborhood who report that if you see a behavior and usual condition in a neighbor you know maybe they're just putting things out and they should be did he report that to you call the police. Maybe I don't know just depends on the situation but when it comes to locations when it comes to facilities and organizations people where people are clustered together for academics or education there's almost always going to be certainly somebody there that you can talk to and I think that's where you're going to find most of the issues anyway if you see someone who's just kind of. Off and they're doing things that are unusual. You probably don't want to call the police. But you may want to talk to their family. If that person loves the someone or you may want to talk to if you have access to the relatives you may want to contact them because that's a support group that's a person who can get them help. Theoretically you know I mean obviously you don't know I mean it's a case by case basis at that point I don't think there's any problem with looking at them and David just have to be a case by case basis I think that feels to me like getting really involved in somebody else's it is and I agree with you you're right and that is this is where you have to really you better be sure right you know you better be sure and I think that that's where there are some gray hair E.-A there nobody's parents not a perfect system right any little aspect in our society anything that changes where people can identify things ahead of time is going to be an improvement OK I guess my instinct would be not to dial nine one one but to call the police and said I just want to mention something sure I don't think it's an emergency and rightly not a profession that feels like for. OK thing I don't think that's bad I I err on the side of caution I mean I make sure the one thing I do make sure of is. And I think this could address the issue this is myself personally as I know all my neighbors and I know them well and I interact with them I communicate with them I make sure that if there's anything going on that that in my side that they know about it now do I make them like get in my business you know obviously but do I I let them know you know if we're going out of town or if things are going you know how things are going or anything you know we're doing OK everything's all right and then I make sure that they have an open line of communication with me too that they there is a cordial relationship I think we've we've come to the point in our life in our in our community international community where we've become much more closed off and you know whereas you know we're we're not people aren't really a village anymore you know we have our own little villages in our home and and that can be. Bad in some ways you know it's good to I think it's good to keep in touch with their neighbors and I'm not saying you go in through a neighborhood party every week you know to run on you know but I don't think there's anything wrong about getting people in your on your block either I'd like to go through some of the indicators that you point out in your book that every single person in a community can be on the lookout for OK and it will start out with you breaking down into three kinds of indicators early indicators what are the early indicators of those things that you should pay close attention to keep an eye on but they don't warrant and immediate reaction so things that you know you would see home and in a lot of ways they're actually their challenge to recognize in the stage because it seems like in many ways to do the unusual or to act in an unusual way is almost. The social norm but nevertheless you should pay attention and you want to look at them based on the severity. The volume or the you know the amount and how often they occur so what it sounds like to me maybe a way that helps me think about this is a big scale and it's tipping one way or the other and each time I see each instance of one of these things and putting another tiny little weight on the scale it's reported right and if it's true here it's a heavier weight right so one of the early indicators is observer discomfort and one thing that I like to do when I'm in training is I tend to throw I have a very it's a big picture on my Power Point and at this point in the training it's been a Powerpoint I've been talking and we've been having some discussion and it's a very I try to make it a jovial environment and then I know where I'll just throw a picture of Marilyn Manson. The performer at his peak let me just put that way where he's dressed in his some radical attire and maybe play some music and things and the reaction from people in the in the group is pretty it's pretty entertaining they kind of are startled and I ask him like What if this individual walked in this room right now and said to all of us would you be comfortable with Aisha sat down the search. Taking notes with us. And people are quite honestly like how I would be in conflict why because he's dressed the way he is because he's he's wearing what he's wearing. Is that bother you and they go well it doesn't bother me but it makes me uncomfortable it's observer discomfort and I go well that's Believe it or not that's actually good you should pay attention to those things there if somebody. Enters a room if you're had somebody in a room and it's just the two of you or maybe it's not and there's just something about them and you just start. We'll awkward That's what that is the individual attacked he the professors there who worked with him had major issues with him and they had reported him on several occasions and they had nothing really to go on so the school couldn't really do much to him they just felt that there was something off about him and it got to the point that they had developed a series of code words amongst each other where if you walked into a room with them alone in their in their offices they would pick up the phone and call another teacher and say hey. I just want to let you know that you know for example I don't know if this was the exact car but they'd say You know I just want to know that the the red chair down the hall is is actually blue OK thanks bye and that was the code word for hey this guy is in my office and you need to get over here I don't want to be alone with him so they knew that there they felt that their observer discomfort was so valid that they're willing to set up code words among themselves to protect themselves prior to this the shooting happening and it turned out to be a valid observation on their part that everybody everybody has a story. Everybody when you meet if you will go through these indicators as you're reading a book or as you're reading about this you're going to go through it you're going to go hey I remember this guy from school or I remember this girl who did this I remember this one time when I did that and it's because it's rampant it's everywhere it's happened in everybody's life everybody's a story even me a guy I went to high school with and ran track with he was at my house we grew up together we were kids we had a great time he killed his mother with a hammer. And a just snapped went insane and he and then he he was found out in his backyard by the police because the neighbor called because he saw him drenched in blood in the backyard. Killed is killed his mother with a hammer this guy ran track with was a he was a good person was a good friend he went insane you know everybody's got a story even me I'm sorry that happened I mean what terrible thing to happen it's more about oh yeah of course but what I'm get the point I'm getting at is that it's not unusual for people to be like that tends to happen every time when I'm talking about this topic or I'm showing these indicators people say hey you know what that reminded me of something that happened in my life once you know and sometimes obviously I think I think sometimes it's personal too but then a lot of people tend to bring me you know had a friend of mine who did this or I had someone who did that and everything so it's something to him would point to remember is that everybody has a story because that's part of the empowerment is knowing that you're not over reacting you should listen to what your you're thinking what your guts telling you you should go with with that. Get a professional set of eyes on this course absolutely and I think it's a great if there's one sentence I think that's a great that's a great sentence I'm going to trademark it right now you should you should get a professional set of eyes on this I've had people tell me that you know we're not a medical professional What are you you know and you're right I'm not I'm not telling you to diagnose a condition. If you see someone fall on the ground and their arm is sticking out of their skin I'm not telling you to operate on the arm and I can tell you to treat the arm I just tell you to look at it and go that's a broken arm I can tell because of the bone sticking out of it and I've seen arms before and they don't look like that so I'm going to go ahead and call nine one one I'm going to a professional in here a professional set eyes to take care of the situation and then I'm going back away that's what I'm telling you to do and not tell you diagnose addition to identify it assess what you need to do and then act and hey identify Oh I've observed a broken arm OK Well let me assess it well the person screaming in agony right now it doesn't look like it's normal there's a bone sticking out of the flesh and then act on it OK I'm going to call on that clear. If eyes your message and I think it also makes it seem less onerous to do a good thing I hope it is where I'm metaphorically banging my head against the wall is that I don't want to I when I talk to organizations and people who have the opportunity to to do some kind of training they go. You know it sounds like your your get into a medical field here and I don't know if your call of the game is called It is I agree it it I understand what you're saying that it would sound like a medical field but it's not when I was a Secret Service agent I was I didn't I was trained to identify these conditions too but I wasn't a psychologist I was a criminal psychologist or behavioral psychologist I was trained by them with these conditions to look at these conditions but I wasn't trying to diagnose them or give them medication or anything like that I was trying to identify that they had some some indicators that needed to be further processed OK let's go back to you Cliff Notes I'll go through your list here I'll continue with the early indicators and then just think of it as like a bull so I mentioned just going to give a sentence or two about what it is maladaptive behavior maladaptive behavior is being being exposed to a certain environment and not being able to adapt to that environment not causing a lot of stress and a lot of pressure in an individual we see this commonly with kids transfer into new schools I think the movie Inside Out is a great way to look at it from a childlike perspective the main character gets moved to a different school and she starts to have emotional shutdown and obviously the the make characters are her emotions dealing with that situation that's a happy way to look at maladaptive behaviors a more dark but realistic not realistic but Dark Turn of mild up to be. Havior would be like the movie Full Metal Jacket at the beginning where there in boot camp the main character was a are not the main character the one supporting characters was a private Gomer Pyle was on able to perform at the expectation that the other recruits were the other boot camp recruits or and was targeted for that and it resulted him in having a mental breakdown and killing himself and another person and so. You know that to be a good now death to be disregarding social norms it is exactly what it sounds like it's a disregard of social norms would be something that we perceive as. Just not happening regularly and there's really no explanation for it I will tell you that from my own personal perspective I was at a grocery store once and I saw teenager a teenaged girl she's about seventeen years old look like and she was sitting in the grocery cart was her grandmother was pushing her around. She was interacting with her there was no issues she was not debilitated she just wanted to be an approach a car being pushed around that was it's not something you see every day a teenager jumping into a grocery cart around the food that you're shopping for and that her grandmother I assume it was her grandmother it was an older woman more distinguished lady was OK with it it seemed like there wasn't any any need for that and it's not something that's common and. I will tell you that I think most parents or grandparents probably would have gone along with it so I think that that's the disregard for social norms OK And again no no reason to probably Russian call nine one one but he writes this right and a bunch of other things you know one right one Jack exactly it's one check exactly and then the other thing is that it was a lack of care. Of other people around nobody seemed to care she didn't seem to care what other people thought or she'll be running the world in terror I'm sure you know I'm sure I would be working for irrational behavior just as it is a radical thinking with with no logical explanation for one thing that I bring up and as an example as the game of soccer or football in Europe is extremely popular to the point that it becomes a credibly violent there's no explanation for this people have died at these things it's a soccer game it's a game soccer I am passionate about sports I'm as passionate as the next guy but I'm not going to go out and make blood bombs or urine bombs or Molotov cocktails to incinerate my opponents fans it's irrational and then these people will turn around and they will go to work the next day but at for whatever reason they have they have checked their logic at the door they've checked their humanity at the door when they go to these soccer tournaments I read that it has something to do that particular situations had something to do with the group mentality sure groupthink is always obviously a big issue you know and you're right if you see somebody doing well and he's not getting trolled must be OK And so yes I could see where that would be an option too and that's just something that I've tended to use is the irrational irrational behavior but certainly does paint the picture in this book I think of it as soon as we shut down but they talked about how. The power of this group things that as an individual I would never think of doing but as part of this group where we're all doing it I'm you know leading the charge you know I think I've I think I'll take a step further and say that I'm sure that most of us have done things like that before and I'm not going to go into specifics of my life but I can assure you that that has happened and then I look back and go on you know I can't. I threw that egg let me just put it that way and maybe in my youth but you know all right well done though we talked about observer discomfort Yes unconventional beliefs this is a belief that doesn't. Jive with the working or understanding world. I was teaching a class on this number of years ago and I brought up nine eleven Truth years. Individuals who believe that the attacks of nine eleven were what is commonly believed as a al-Qaeda terrorist attack nine eleven truth there's typically believe that there was some kind of a conspiratorial background to it involved in the United States government our reasons for going in the warren and what not and so I brought it up as a example of unconventional behavior that people who believe this are are acting on conventionally and I had one of the individuals in my class became very animated and let me know that she herself was a nine eleven True there so I need to clarify and I still stand by it that there's our. Exhibit unconventional behavior and I'll tell you why. Because six hundred years ago there were only a few people in the world who believed that the world was round almost everybody on earth believe that the world was flat. The people who believe that the world was around six hundred years ago developed on or showed on conventional behavior. We've had science and evidence to suggest that they were correct from the beginning maybe six hundred years from now will have evidence to suggest that nine eleven Truth has had it right all along I'm not Six's they will but we may but for now their thinking is unconventional The vast majority of the world believes that. The attacks of nine eleven were a terrorist attack brought on by. Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda followers it makes sense and I also think your. Remarks are going to stand the test of time centuries from now the thing. Got it right where you said it was a he hit the mark on the head so I have to clarify that now because now I. Have come across nine eleven Truth theirs and they have been extremely offended that I bring it up and I stand by my you show me that the vast majority of people follow your your your beliefs and I will change it over or change my my thinking so for now they are my argument but yes it is my thinking also been yes and the last of the early indicators behavioral suffering this is those preeminent lead ins to things such as depression when someone seems to be in. Distress. Emotionally they may be dealing with a. Tragic event in their life this is one of those things where I believe that you don't need the other indicators to do something about it if you know someone's going through a personally hard time. You need to make the effort to help them out to do this otherwise it's going to continue a downward spiral if they're not getting some kind of support among the so counseling but they may need some kind of moral support or something like that I've had friends who have lost children I've had friends who've been divorced and some Sometimes they need to speak with counseling sometimes they just need a shoulder but it's evident that they're suffering that they are dealing with a very challenging point in their life and I think we know it when we see it I do believe that I don't believe you need to be observant to know when somebody is dealing with a hard on their life and we need to be proactive about it and just reaching out and listening for fifteen minutes as you may as you pointed out can can make all the difference I am a firm believer in that I'm a firm believer that I've had people do it for me and it has changed my perspective on life. In a lot of ways when I. I felt like I was at my my worst at my lowest rock bottom there were people who cared and I have tried are separate for others I do believe that I'm a tiny to be all and everything but it's enough just to know that somebody cares cares enough to make sure that you're OK You are welcome to pass on this but I want to ask do you want to share a little bit more about what that terrible time was and and how someone reached out to you I had a hard time of my towards the end of my career with the Secret Service I left in good standing but I left on my own volition and I left because of the. The hardship of the job I don't bear them any ill will and I have the they have my respect and I just wasn't emotionally. Mostly mentally strong enough to continue with the stress of the work so I left on my own. I let them go you know I they don't like their broken toys and so I probably could have stuck around but I think it would have taken a long lasting effect on my family and on me so I that's why I left I left on my own volition for that reason and it was a hard time and I owe. I owe so much to my my spouse my lovely wife and for carrying me through it and and my my I had some very close friends who. Who'd never They always saw me as Jason Wells they never saw me as Jason was Secret Service agent and they they liked me for me and they want to be around me and they wanted to make sure that I was OK that I was back to my old. Hell raising self and I think we're getting there I think we're good that this book was very therapeutic in a lot of ways for that. It helped provide information for people I thought could be useful and it also it also gave me a. Means to do some some self-awareness some soul searching you were an almost obsessive long distance runner I was. Also in the Secret Service by the nature of the job in print we took almost every waking moment of your life so in both of those I wonder if this phrase applies and it's not my phrase at all but athletes they say athletes die twice because you much when you are no longer that competitive athlete and then probably say it sounds like maybe something similar when you're no longer in a job like the Secret Service that can be defining it was it's very much like that I think to this day I still have their it's you know when I tell you when I when I went through the the process of going through the the interview and the application process which was almost two years it was a twenty month from from cradle to grave from the the day I dropped the the application in to my first day on the job not starting training just my first day walking in was about twenty months it was almost two years and so just so I understand beyond once you walk in then training began yes then training was eight months long you go through four months of training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe Georgia and then you cope back to the training center in Beltsville Maryland So there's two training academies which you go through so it's a very rigorous time and that's day one that's for eight months of that so it's a very rigorous and they make sure that their their individual are well prepared they do a very good job of preparing people but during my application process I remember one of the individuals who interviewed me in one of my panel interviews he said. No matter. Or you go in life whatever you do you will be remembered in some aspect of the secret service whether it's a former agent or a current agent or someone people will add i DEN if I you in that regard it might even be on your tombstone and it was his way of saying so you you better be damn sure. And he was right people still associate me with that and I haven't been in since two thousand and fourteen just just as one of those. So those were the early indicators let's get into the danger indicators. So first of all what's a danger indicator these are things that what I call red flags that you should act on these as quickly as possible they have a. Serious ness to them that suggests that you need to involve other people and notify the people isn't necessarily mean that you need to notify law enforcement that's a definite possibility. But you definitely to have you don't need to blow it off you don't need to say well I'm over reacting this is where empowerment comes in and you need to do something this is the. The meat. The real meat of the book these are the ones that I think are the most likely that an individual come across and they need to so in addition to it being the most likely that they will come across it is the most important that they address in some aspect. I think it's so helpful to know this is important absolutely You definitely want to have definition to what you're seeing and that was important for me because I believe I've mentioned it before and I'll say it again I genuinely believe that people don't act on something because it's not defined to the. I believe that people look at something and they say well I don't know what this means I know it's bad I know there's something going on right now that I'm getting concerned about but because I don't know what it is I'm overreacting and so it's important that we define what they need to be looking for I think that a lot of people just the they need that they need that that that hard piece of paper that says this is what you're looking for and I've done the best I can it's great I mean almost a playbook exactly exactly All right so going to run through each of these danger indicators and again as sort of a bullet point fashion share a sentence or two or an example about each one to give us a sense of them please significant and sudden changes in a person's life if people forget everything that I've ever said to them or everything in my book I think they say that typically people remember retain ten percent of the things they read or that they are lectured on I want them to remember retain this topic right here sudden or significant changes in a person's life for danger indicator. This is the highest percentage of individuals who are studied in the in the case study project that the Secret Service conduct in the ninety's that we talked about earlier. Almost every single individual who committed a targeted violence against another person had sudden or significant changes in their life things like they lost their job they had a divorce they found out their significant other had an affair they were embarrassed humiliated in public they lost their house all these stressors that we've all dealt with that makes you feel like your world comes crashing down and that there's just. Everything is just over and you fall to your knees and you cry to God help me please we've all experienced some kind of calamity or something like this in our life I hope people have only experienced it a few times those sudden changes are what motivate our high probability I believe the percentage is ninety eight percent of the time or what have motivated an individual to act in cases where they were studied in targeted violence in the exceptional case study project they studied and astounding ninety eight percent it's an it's almost one hundred percent it's an astounding number so the point I'm getting at is we all experience these things. If you see someone who's experiencing this be proactive in their life if they're going through a hard time in their life if they are having a divorce if they're lose if they've lost their job. This is where you need to get involved you may need to get involve with their family you may need to talk to their spouse or their their support group you may be part of that support group you may be the spouse you need to be involved you need to be doing if it's a kid that you know about at school who's going through a sudden horrible issue or something you need to make sure that the faculties aware of it the guidance counselor where if you know that. Some is going through a hard time at your office you need to make sure that supervisors and human resources are aware of these situations. These cataclysmic sudden changes in people's lives and when I say these things they're typically negative they're typically horrible issues you know I mean somebody has a child they're usually not you know that's a huge change in someone's life but that's not something that they're going to usually do something terribly upsetting or violent because they had a kid you know I mean so. I mean these are typically negative things that happen in people's lives when I find a duffel bag full of money right exactly exactly you win the lottery so it tells you you're not going to have a cataclysmic event for the negative So anyway that is the one thing that I just can't stress over and over so important so and change them people's lives. And it's funny because we know this in life we know this in in every aspect of our life the running joke is that you don't you know you you always fire somebody on a Friday you know so they have time to cool off on Monday there was a movie I mean in pop culture we see it there was a movie by Michael Dunn starring Michael Douglas called Falling down that's what this is about a sudden change in his life based on he just had enough of the traffic and he just went insane and just started going and beating people up all over the city with a baseball bat you know I mean that's what the the movie was about you know and we know these things already we already know this in life we've seen it in pop culture we've seen it in our regular work days and we just don't even give it a second thought but when you think about it it makes perfect sense. And some of these terrible events cause people to back away I mean I know that if somebody loses somebody dear that parent or sibling or that it's hard for me to be around somebody who's really grief stricken so I might be less likely to reach out to them than if something less terrible happened and I don't think that's anything I don't think it's anything bad we're all like that you know it's. It is hard to do you know and I agree with you in the end you're human you know that's what we are going on the same what you know you don't I do I do agree with that you know we don't necessarily want to be like that I'm not saying it's easy. It's interesting that our nature as people sometimes drives us in the wrong direction from what would actually be better I there. Ourselves or for the world right and keep in mind I mean this is where you start getting into the Greer where counselors get involved too you know and you can be the segue to that at a professional set of eyes absolutely yours absolutely OK. Concern of others. So when I say that when I write concern of others. It's what your recognizing from what other people are observing you have to understand that you may be the person who is being given the information about someone else. Someone else may have taken. The assessment the observation the assessment the action step to report it you may be before you without even knowing it you may be the report he you may be the person who's receiving the information the concern of others is from people like their family member or their friends or someone who you just happen to hear the gossip circle and they don't know what to do with it and they're getting it to you maybe they bring it to you because you're a confidant or maybe you're someone who they just they need some some insight. You should ignore it it's important that you take the next step and you you don't let the communiqué stop with you because that person has taken the effort to bring it somehow to you. And as far as you know it may be off their plate now in all likelihood it is now you may not be in a professional sense to be the guidance counselor or the H.R. but that doesn't mean that because they brought it to you that they're going to great someone else now too you need to take the initiative you need to encourage them to take it to someone else don't let it stop with you is what I'm getting at that's what concern of others OK that thank you that makes perfect sense I'm going to read through the motivations for why people engage in violent rampage any jump out at you or you want to share some more about them or an example please do. Notoriety or. Again this is something like in the event of the individual who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy Sirhan Sirhan Noam he was quoted as saying and I'm not getting the quote exactly right but someone to the effect of they can gas me they can put me in the electric chair they can kill me but the one thing everybody will remember is that certain Sirhan killed Robert F. Kennedy that was his motivation was that he was remembered. Why I don't know I mean I'm not insane I don't know you know I mean it's a it's not a it's not a sane thought but in his. Delusional mind he wanted to make sure that everybody knew who he was so there you go so his motivation was notoriety and frame that was about patient causing violence against another human being. Cry for help. A lot of times this is focused on people who attempt suicide more and I think they they are looking for attention attention such a a light word with the seriousness of suicide attempts but they are motivated for causing harm to themselves so that they attempt to harm themselves and. That is their motivation OK revenge pretty cut and dry we see this a lot everything from lovers' quarrels you know people will target an ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend or someone who left them someone who had who they felt jaded by we see this regularly revenge is a typically common is a typically common. Recipe for violent response delusions of grandeur this is the concept that you're larger than what you are you are larger than life you believe that you're the something that is more than you are Eric Harris and. Or the the individuals who committed the Columbine massacre and prior to their prior to their their attack they there was evidence to suggest they were bullied in school and that they had created a an alternate persona that they called the Trenchcoat Mafia and they wrote it journals and they they were known to make themselves out to be this this. Duo of macabre assassins and they fulfilled that fantasy to a degree. Bringing attention to a cause for concern. This is hard this is hard to see but a lot of times you see this with organizations. One that comes to mind is the ELF the Earth Liberation Front they are a. Where they were they might not be around anymore but I know back in the day they were a organization that was sought out. Protecting the earth from. Individuals or and corporations that they believed were causing environmental damage and they did so in a terrorist capacity so they would leave. If they would go out to places where they knew they were going to be people cut down trees or that with chain saws and they would they would implant chains and and metal into the tree so that when the chain saw hit it would cause. Damage and backfire on the on the the men who were cutting down the trees so terrorist action for a cause and then lastly mental health indicators I mentioned the beginning and I cannot and I know I mentioned several times in the book I cannot express enough the vast vast majority people who have who are diagnosed with mental health conditions or have mental health conditions whether they've been diagnosed or not are not not violent this is. It's just that the people who have been studied who have violence also have shown to have mental health conditions in the past so that people with mental health conditions are violent other people who are violent have shown to have those conditions in addition to other things too so why do I put them in there I certainly don't mean there to diagnose for people to diagnose the condition. I put them in there because and I certainly don't put them in there these different types of mental health conditions that are or have been commonly associate with people who have violent behavior so that you can be wary or concerned with someone who has a condition like this I put them in there because you may come across a situation where an individual. Has notified you that they have a condition or in some capacity you have found out that they have a condition and you've seen other other indicators I don't know what the situation is but it's better to have the information and not need it the need the information not have it so that's why I put it in there it's not to diagnose I have to preface that many times I think I processed it probably through about half the book so we are not mental health professionals but it's always good to have the definition of some of these mental health conditions that some of these assailants have had in the past I'm going to bounce around a little more targeted violence in virtually every single instance there's a display of behavior associated with planning an attack that's correct almost all the time and we're not seeing anything well I think we are seeing them and I think we're not doing anything about. I believe that that we have and this goes back to the exceptional case study project that we talked about and then I also wanted to add that after the Columbine shooting the Secret Service and shortly worked on a similar follow up study that took. Individuals who attack schools and academic institutions and corporations and businesses and they work jointly with the Depart of educational and it's called the Safe School Initiative So these two are where I got a lot of this information from so you can trace those the findings were basically the same. There really wasn't anything that I saw that was that was different so a lot of this came from one of those two I went to I meant to mention that So yes the individuals what does that mean that these are pretty primitive pre-planned actions it means that somebody didn't wait that they didn't wake up and decide in a wild hair that they were going to throw their life away that they had no concept of what they were going to do and they were going to walk into a facility and searching the place up. These actions were calculated these actions were methodical they were planned and. One thing I talk about with danger indicators are communication it's important that if you're hearing somebody talk about how they're planning on doing something or that they're researching it. You definitely need to do something about it and what I also what I tend to associate it to is I'll ask people you know well I'll ask you Mark if you ever bought a new car or and when you got the car did you take it home and put it in the garage and forget about it and kind of go about your day or just that was it are you proud of that car or sure are you a problem of course you get around whenever I walked outside and you said look at that car that's my car let me take a picture of it you probably put it on the Internet you know should some people look at my picture you know I know I did you know I thought I you know I you take pictures of your car and if you don't then you've probably seen people who do you're very proud of it took time it took hardwork it took effort. In these individuals like minds that's their car. This is a thought of planning they're putting to. Either and attack and they've got of void certain things and they've got to do certain things and this is taking up their time and it's in their mind all the time they're not going to work and coming home going out How am I going to plan this attack next week that I'm doing it's always on their mind is what they're always thinking about they can't help but communicate it as the day gets closer they start getting giddy with excitement it's not enough to put into a journal or a video that they they have to share it they have to brag have to boast and that's why communication is so key. Because you say it you say how do we not know about these things I think we do I think that these individuals are talking about it they're discussing it and the people who they're reporting are saying it to these quote individuals of trust their friends or their siblings or their parents who aren't saying anything they're going well he's overreacting he's just being silly. Because I'll tell you something go through all the news clippings of all of the incidents that occur in America in the last ten years that involve weapons or violence that involve these targeted violent situations and find. I'll tell you after about oh a couple days after about a week people start coming out the cracks and you'll see what they're saying and they say want to two things he or she seemed like a nice person I never imagined that they would do this that's one thing the other thing is well he said a couple things here and there but I never imagined he was serious I mean I didn't think I just thought he was askew from off you know playing those games or doing those things you know I didn't think he was serious about that stuff it happens people know they just don't feel empowered enough to say anything about it. And part of the message of this book is when you get that information don't grow decide her act do something with the up empowerment absolutely do something with it. Jason I want to talk to you about. Bullying and bullying it is oftentimes at the heart of what's caused these people to eventually undertake this tragic bylines I agree you were a bully starting at seven years old can you tell us a little bit about that and then tell us how bullying in general manifests itself sure. Well I will say that my experience and I think that I don't like making it out like it was a it was a personal experience obviously but I think that there are so many people who've had similar situations I really do and I would say that mine was a conventional. Means it was one individual targeting me and it was a physical violence that reached the point across Sendo where I think it's one of two responses is that people tend to fall into a shell and they become sick cloistered in themselves and they don't you know they get out of that environment or they they change environment something something happens but they remain in that shell or the other response is that people just snap you know for want of a better term and that's kind of what happened to me I was more the latter and I. And I finally stood up to the individual and and it changed me it changed me to the point that I I just didn't want to see that happen anybody else ever again and I didn't tolerate it I had more confidence myself to to stand up to to bullies and. I think that sometimes I think that is necessary that you have to you have to face challenges in life to to deal with those those situations and that's what happened with me. I also think that nowadays the bullying that is happening in our society is far worse and that's what With cyber cyber bullying cyber bullying transcends age it transcends professional those I'm. Every time you're on a social network like Facebook and you see somebody having a video done of themselves without their permission. And they've done something make an ass of themselves they fall in or they got beat up or something something that we're all guilty of that we've all had happened to us. But the magical video recorder of the telephone the handheld telephone makes it possible for us to record it now and get put out on the Internet every time you hit that thumbs up every time you write something about it you the grown adult. You're contributing to that you're contributing to that bullying you may think you're not but you're not the person the video who's watching one million people. See it and are mocking you and making fun of you and we're all guilty of it I'm guilty of it too I'm guilty of it every day I still have to catch myself. And say I can't watch this stuff I can't do this stuff it's not right. And we don't personalize it we just see it as some person on the Internet and that that person's going through life knowing that they're out there on the Internet. And they're reading the comments and they're reading the messages and they're they know their faces out there and they know that they're now a. Quote celebrity for all the wrong reasons right you know and that bullying carries it goes wherever you're And and you're not being you're not being conventionally bullied by the guy in your high school hallway like I was in seventh grade you're going to other locations and you're you're seeing adults who know about it and you're seeing you know you're seeing adults who are writing things to you adults not kids you know and this is it's and it transcends your age you know where you're supposed to be living in a professional life and personal life and now you're bullying and you're being bullied. In. No for something that you happened to you that somebody may have caught on a on a camera it's it's terrible it's a terrible situation that we're in right now and I know people accuse me of like well you know they're just being oversensitive No no they're not it's perception. Could I take it maybe I don't know you know I don't know you don't know how you take it or how to take it you know and so I think is a major major issue right now and how that's of all us about evolution I think has gotten worse it's bullying has gotten by far worse it's not physical. But it's definitely affects people's egos and transcends long longer time lines and that it's out there permanently Exactly it doesn't go anywhere you can't get rid of it you know it's it's it's always there and there's no way to defend yourself against it you can't stand up and tell that's exactly the way you did let it work that's exactly right the adversary is NOT exist it's in the cloud I guess that's what they call it the cloud on the right kind of. Fashion a more conventional one of the what what. Do you want my daughter in her I think my character. Is bullying different from what you experienced and what you described on line versus what we see when there's this violent rampage and that person there had bullying in their history Well you know. I think every case is different and I certainly don't know the details of what those individuals personally experienced like I know that like Mark Levine was the individual who shot the Colli polytechnic school in Canada back in the eighty's and his target were females specifically females he actually let the males out of the the room that he was holding hostage and began subsequently execution style kill the women that were in the room and he felt that he was being bullied by women. By women by Gen And yet there were other people who cleave old Harris who we talked about earlier from Columbine and looking at their background it looks like there's was a conventional style bullying too just on a larger scale more several individuals first one bully that they avoided so I think it runs the gamut I think that there's a little there's a lot of different aspects the important thing is going back to what we talked earlier with cyberbullying commendable and what not it's perception it's perceptions reality whether there's a person who is they feel like they're being treated unfairly by a a a gender or whether they're being physically abused by. Kids in school it's how. They're perceiving the ultimate end result is the humiliation that's what really is the damage is the humility the public humiliation the after effects the scar the emotional scars the public humiliation are what really affect somebody in that aspect and then tying it back into your list of motivations that's probably revenge Yes Yeah absolutely or changes in their life and the public humiliation is one of the negative change sudden name changes in a person's life to somebody who has been moved to a different location had a sudden change in a life and they're getting bullied at their new school. Their you know sudden change in their life cause public humiliation total trash. I wouldn't put that together and now he's saying you know you're OK I want to talk to you for a moment about stocking you said that one of your classmates at the Secret Service Academy I don't think it's actually called and said that stalking is when two people are on a date but only one of them knows Yes and it was mentioned in a it's obviously a very serious subject that was told in a joking kind of manner but there is a true. Sorts to that that you have an obsessed individual a person who fancies another for one reason or another and it's not reciprocated. That's kind of what the point of it is it could go to all kinds of extremes in the book I make mention of one of my family members who was. Hers was more of a long term situation where the individual had take it's a pretty radical action by going visiting her over long huge distances to professes love but then when he got there. And saw her on the college campus he didn't approach her and talk with her he didn't he didn't do those things that would be socially acceptable he didn't let her know he was coming he didn't let her know that he or asked her if he could show up you know or ask if they could get together he just decided that he thought in his mind that it would be romantic for him to arrive leave her a flower on her vehicle and then he proceed to let her get a get a note if you get a letter and let her know how pretty she looked in her outfit so thinking about thinking he's thinking he looks like. You know that she's going to be swooning you know we were all she was concerned about was. There was a minute strange man somewhere on this campus has been watching me all day inside Libya far she's not going to call him she's going to call her dad that's the man she really trusts you know she's going to call so you know either call dad for help you know and and she should these are not healthy behaviors obviously mostly females are dealing with stalking issues I've not had that thankfully it's one of the advantages to having a. Face made for podcast think I don't think I have too many stalking if you say so but and I don't mean to make light of it because it is a very serious subject and it motivates people to do violent things Hank Lee comes to mind rather quickly John. The Junior was obsessed with Jodie Foster and he was motivated to attack President Reagan because in his diseased mind he felt that this would show Jodie Foster how powerful. He was which she looked at him like everything else like everyone else did you know that he's insane so clearly. That didn't work so it's a very careful people who are stalking another individual or are already unstable you just have to be concerned with what they're willing to do to gain the attention of the person who they are infatuated with OK What should a stalking victim do stalking is a crime and they need to become involved with getting a law enforcement intervention this is another example of somebody who thinks that they're overreacting they say well you know this guy's obsessed with me on disk I don't want to get people worried I don't want to worry my parents I don't want to worry my my office had a lost art drama in my work you know no you need to do those things you need to notify people you need to if you're of it if you're being victimized by stalking incidents you need to make sure that people are well aware that this is happening and. I believe that in this case law enforcement would be extremely helpful they would be able to absolutely direct us to what to do next based on the case are the laws and procedures currently on the book on the books correct for handling stalking situation I think there's a lot of changes that are constantly going about especially with regards to how the Internet laws are constantly evolving trying to keep up with the evolution of the software itself what constitutes stalking online does it exist I believe it does. Is it pretty hard to prove I believe it is but people know when. Someone is. Looking at. Social pages and following somebody socially and sending things out and they don't want them to do that. So. The laws laws also apply typically state by state stalking is not a federal crime a federal issue I don't believe it might it might fall under something like up a wire investigation of something like that you know where cyber cyber crimes federally go across like wires or lines of communication but right now I I believe that local law enforcement would be the for individual cases would be where we're to start OK thank you as we wrap up I want to take a quick look at what you are doing in the near future what you're going to be working on I understand you just wrote the foreword to a book that is coming out to a two time New York Times best selling author tell us about that that's right I have a I have a good friend and a former associate of mine we were in the Secret Service together and we're action same field office and we left about two years apart his name is Dan Bongino and he's a political activist now he has a podcast called the renegade Republican he does quite a bit of conservative radio he fills in for I know he's filled in for Sean Hannity and Mark Levin in the past he's done some very. Quality political work he does he's a guest on on C.N.N. and Fox News and he like you said he's been he's written two excellent books as first one was a life in the bubble which was about his time in the Secret Service and so when he wrote was the fight which is a political book nonfiction both nonfiction and he's director of the third book about well it's about the Secret Service and I'll leave it at that I don't want the how the back but I think it's I've read it it's excellent and I had the privilege of being. Asked by Dan to write the forward for the book which was a great honor and I don't use that word lightly words like honor are very important me and it was a great honor I was very flattered and. I'm very excited I was very proud of the forward that I wrote he seemed to like it and so. It's coming out the end of September his book is coming out in the September and it is called The Secret Service and I hope that you get a chance to read it I hope you enjoy the forward to riff and I will make sure to have a link to some website of his to make sure that anyone following this can actually get to the authors page and access the book and listen to that renegade Republican and whatever else and I guess I plugged in more. But and then I am in the process of writing a I guess it would be a follow up to our path the safety it's for the working title is are our future for safety and it's a I want to say it's a middle school high school college meant for that kind of age group for the younger generation the things that they can do to watch out for and the things that they can do to help and how to approach situations because I think it's different when you're a kid Vers an adult which is my nonfiction working on that right now and then I have I have a promise to my daughter to write her a fiction that she has wanted for so long as I can remember she actually had an idea for a story and she came to me and and said Daddy do you think you can write this for me and I said I looked out and I said. That's pretty good that's got that's that's not bad you know you're you get great about it so I'm yes I'm I'm stealing my daughter story and I'm writing it it's going to be a fiction endeavor so we'll see how that goes but until I get more stuff down I'm going to keep it that so well that's. Wonderful it sounds like you're going to have plenty to do through the rest of two thousand and seventeen Yes I think I am I think I think I'm going to be busy but I always got time to come back to unsettle That's great thank you where can people find you on line with the best social network or website I'm pretty introverted guy fine nature but there is a there is a Jason Wells author dot com and that's all or case all one word and then probably the best way to get ahold of me or or find out what I'm writing like day to day writing is if you go to the writers' website Kora dot com Q U R A dot com That is a popular social web site that focuses on subject matter experts answering questions about materials they know and are trying it on their every day and people can go on there and follow me and message me they can messenger questions they had about Secret Service or other things I do have other things in my life going on so they can ask me questions about you know I enjoy cooking on my Big Green Egg they can ask me about that and I can answer questions and I'm heavily and actively involved with core So I think those are probably the best ways to get ahold of me all this I'm on Facebook and I have and my my nonprofit National advances for product of safety is take dash naps dot org So take damps is kind of an easy way to remember so that's what I like to do take naps so thank you for having me this been a great privilege Well it's certainly been my pleasure I want to thank Jason Wells former Secret Service agent for being on inside the law and will hopefully see again soon Absolutely. To keep track of all our episodes and see the show notes and links visit our website inside the Law dot co that's inside the law. Thanks for listening and thanks again to our wonderful guest, Jason Wells.
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